When I first came to China and learned of Shanghainese and just how different from “Chinese” it really was, I knew it was something I wanted to explore further. Then I learned of Gaochun, and then moved to Changzhou. And while it’s not the most common Wu dialect, I can’t help but feeling a bit biased toward the idea of Changzhouhua as a perfect place to jump in. It has all of the things that would be a mess to learn from soft sounds that fall right in the middle of what one may have previously thought of as distinct sounds to nearly the full range of 8 classical tones. Shanghainese seems more distilled, at least to my ears, with more modern urban influence and some indication of simplifying things. Knowing I’d end up in Shanghai after a fair amount of time here in southern Jiangsu, I’ve made a sincere effort to soak up as much as I can before that jump. Unfortunately the ideal form of that effort hasn’t always been clear to me.
It started out with phrase-book Shanghainese when I was originally starting out in the city. It stayed that way for some time until I got deeper into things, at least in terms of geography. From there things picked up likely sue to little more than the amount of time spent hearing it spoken. The initial phrases set the tone and gave just the slightest idea of pacing and pronunciation while cognates and context took care of the rest. With each step in the progress of Mandarin, Wu follows in the appropriate scale. At this point the ideal situation would be to enrol in an actual class upon my arrival in Shanghai this fall. If I have this option, I fully intend to take it. At any rate, ten months later I find I can understand enough to get the gist of most conversations.
I’ve not read much from expats who have come to China and attempted to learn the local topolect in addition to Mandarin, with the exception of those dealing with non-Sinitic languages such as studying Uighur or Manchu. I’d be quite thrilled to hear how others have attempted this and what successes and failures have been met. As it’s of far less value than speaking passable Mandarin I’ve not really pushed as hard with Wu. I’m trying to change that. I’m still far less concerned with speaking as I am understanding what is said around me, but I’m sure I could be taking further steps to improve my listening. Therefore I’m now setting aside time each Saturday to focus solely on listening to and sorting out Wu. The weekend proves a better time to do it as the local parks and shopping centers are absolutely full of people buzzing away.
I think my point in all of this is that for almost the last year I’ve taken the position of observant passivity which while not totally ineffective hasn’t really got me as far as I now wish I were. Were I a child with a whole decade to work it out and little else in the way of demands on language that may be good enough. It’s about time I start taking my own advice and really push things a little harder.
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‡ 吳為
Interesting. I’ve been trying to pick up Shanghainese through informal study – ie listening to friends, having them teach me phrases, and picking through the handful of books out there. I at least have only been able to get so far that way; tried to find a formal class but appears there are none, now I am looking for a tutor.
Of course Mandarin is more “useful” – but by the same token there are those who argue one needn’t bother learning even that since “all the Chinese speak English now”. There are definitely doors closed to one if one doesn’t speak the languages of the places one lives, both in terms of human trust and communication and of the intertwine of language and culture.
Let me know if you find a good tutor. I’ll be back in Shanghai in a matter of months and may be looking to find one of my own.
For me at least it has little to do with conventional usefulness aside from being able to understand more of what’s going on and hopefully more of what people are thinking and feeling.
Looking back, few things in my life have been less practical than trying to understand a fringe dialect of an under-appreciated language that is mostly unrecognised as such in its own country.
Don’t be fooled by the story about simplified characters in Taiwan; as I commented a few posts before you in the threat at Language Log, Ma has backed off completely and Taiwan will not move toward simplified characters in the foreseeable future!
@A-gu
I’m not really thinking it has a chance of happening. Just read something that people are hoping it will and Ma was considering it. I’ll continue learning traditional anyway.
When I first started learning some local Beijing slang, and generalized Northeast China non-standard Mandarin usage I was very interested. I’m in Taiwan now and studying Taiwanese. The feelings about it seem to divided along political, background, and regional lines. There is still some of the looking down at the local language, but it’s nothing like I saw in China. I think you always have to take studying a foreign language far more serious that the speakers of the language take their language, but especially so with something as put down as 方言. I have a lot to say about learning 方言, but maybe I’ll say more later. What I will say is that in Taiwan the few non-asian faces that speak Taiwanese are almost by rule missionaries. I have a lot to say about that.
That makes me wonder. I’ve never really thought about this before reading that comment, but I wonder to what extent people living in remote regions are suspicious of any outsider learning the local language based on the potential that they are in fact missionaries. Why else learn Albanian, for example, but to convert the heathens?
I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. It may warrant a future post of its own.
In Taiwan (and in China from my experience) missionaries certainly weren’t looked down upon. In China you have the x-generations after the missionaries were kicked out, who have really no christian customs or demonstrable practices, still cling to that part of their identity. I take that as a kind of a mixture of 崇洋 phenomenon and a 小看自己的后殖民主義情況。 Sun Yat sen was a christian after all. In China I found the attitude of many people towards native religion to be that of disrespect or ridicule and that of foreign religions (ie christianity) to be something worthy of respect.
As for suspicion of outsiders learning one’s language (due to missionary fears or other reasons) I don’t really think that is it all the time. The Vietnamese mail-order bride in the Taiwan is certainly treated as a foreigner, but is obviously expected to be conversant in the local language(s). The white american husband who marries the taiwanese city-girl, eh, maybe not so much.
Languagelog had a few posts recently remarking on the phenomenon where when the linguists go out to remote places to do field work they find out only after that (or after several weeks) that whole sections of the language have been hidden from them for whatever reason. One of the comments commented how this would be similar if someone came to study some American person’s English and all of a sudden he dropped all his slang and stopped using contractions, etc.
I don’t think people will be suspicious of outsiders if their purposes are clear, but when you have missionaries sponsoring english corners or english classes, what really are their motives?
I think the suspicion and confusion I get the most over here has nothing to do with a fear of proselytizing. Normal (non-remote area Chinese and Taiwanese people) are often confused and sometimes suspicious that a non-asian face (though particularly a white face) is learning Chinese. It’s about power relations and how one conceives one place in the world and one’s language is commensurate with that evaluation.
I mean, what you’ve got 70 million native Italian speakers, you go to some other european languages and find far less than that, but somehow Wu is a language not worth studying?
To me it’s not, why learn Albanian, it’s why learn Italian? Seems just as obscure and limiting to me. No more odd than Wu for example. You learn these languages so you can talk to those people and learn them, is that hard to understand? I think in the Chinese world, yea, that is hard to understand for most people. You have a clannish framework based on who speaks your language natively, and then deal with other languages (mandarin, english, etc) as a tool to communicate, get things done, nothing more, nothing less, with the occasional nonsense adulation or genuine interest in cantonese or japanese to watch movies or read cartoons.