 Sinoglot language in China, eclectically
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contact info @ sinoglot · com A quick post while I incubate some others in the works. Yesterday I was served at a nearby Tea Storm by Judy and Andrew. Not their legal names to be sure. It reminded me of something I’d meant to look into. I know plenty of Chinese who use their English names among their Chinese friends. But does this happen the other way around? I never use any of the Chinese names I’ve been given. When someone uses one to refer to me, I usually ask that they just call me Kellen. Are there people who use a name assumed for life abroad? I admit I do this in the Middle East where I’m not Kellen Parker but كمال بركة (Kamāl Baraka). It’s close enough and easier for people to say. But that’s not the same as asking people to call me the equivalent of Apple of Blackman (not kidding on that last one). And I certainly don’t have my non-Arabic speaking peers call me Kamāl. I’d love to hear anyone’s stories of Westerners using significantly different names borrowed from time abroad. 26 commentsLeave a comment |
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I generally use a Chinese name in Taiwan. It can be quite strange sometimes as a large proportion of Taiwanese use English names. This usually gives rise to the situation in which I introduce myself with a Chinese name and they introduce themselves with an English name. Maybe one day it will be cool in the western world to adopt and use a Chinese name.
Tezuk: What’s your background? I assume you’re a Westerner or it wouldn’t be off to use a Chinese name.
I guess my real question would be whether or not you use the Chinese name among other Westerners (assuming you are one).
Yes, I am a westerner and among westerners I use my English name. I have a friend who has lived here a long time and he exclusively uses his Chinese name, which he transcribes quite well as Ray(睿)…so foreigners with no Chinese background don’t have a problem. I guess this example answers your real question.
睿 is indeed an example of just what I was looking for.
Part of my thinking on this is that I think for the most part the Americans I know wouldn’t put up with it any more than if in high school back in America I decided to start calling myself Viper Extreme or some crap like that. It would be seen as some odd affectation rather than a sincere desire to just be called something else.
among chinese i use my Chinese name if they find it too difficult to remember my christian western name, i use it as an easy alternative, my name is Christophe which is quite long and difficult for chinese to remember or pronounce so they know me as 韩多福，which they still seem to find quite amusing. The full story of the name is that Han is for my family name an approximation for no such sounds exist in Chinese, nor in in English （its a typical and almost unique dutch sound) the Duofu is actually a derivate from the official transcription of my name 克里斯多夫， but i changed the fu because the meaning of the original 夫is husband and i thought it a little gay (nothing against gay people) but it would appear a little weird, now most chinese think i just have a quaint name, that reminds them of a peasant name in the ancient days….also a lucky name… i have been using it for 8 years, but if Chinese people use my western name that is fine too…
When I first arrived in China, a friend decided that I must have a Chinese name and the name he gave me provoked mixed reactions – some liked it and some just laughed. The family name was 司马 and a number of old friends still know me only as this. This is now the name I use online, but I don’t think I’ve introduced myself this way for a very long time and it would be useless to use this with non-Chinese speakers, even if I wanted to. Even as I type Sima now, I hear it with anglicised pronunciation.
In face-to-face contact, I always use some variation on my real name now. I’ve even caught myself asking Chinese speakers for their ‘real’ names. Some people seem rather hurt by that.
Regarding asking their “real” names, I’ve also offended people with this question. It always bothered me in the West when foreign friends used some absurd Anglicisation of their name when their actual name wasn’t really that difficult to pronounce anyway. Here, it’s often as if they want to show off their English name.
edit: I wonder if in Japan or Korea or anywhere else in the region use silly English names. I once met a guy in Egypt who introduced himself as Peter. I asked what his name really was. He said Muhammad. Most common name in the world and he still thought it would be too hard. This is while we were speaking Arabic mind you…
The most annoying thing is when you only know their English name and you are in a conversation with someone who is Chinese and definately knows them (eg colleagues) but doesn’t know their English name, this has happened to me quite frequently since I work with english speaking guides all over the country, so now i have to input their chinese names next to their english names so there s no more confusion.
Japanese don’t seem to use the English name thing, they just use their real names, I ve met quite a lot and never i had any say Oh my name is Nakamura Tezuo but you can call me Frank…
I also sort of subconsciously seem to mention that it is my Chinese name, I would never say 我的名字， but i always say 我中文名字是and i mention it always after my western name, for those who can pronounce can use it the others just use the chinese one. I would never use it among western friends though I sometimes sign my emails to friends about life in China with it, sort of as a marker…
I do meet a fair few people who won’t use an English name. I find this kind of reassuring. But some names are always going to be very difficult for English speakers to pronounce and even those that could be pronounced are often going to be misread.
Japanese and Korean friends sometimes have trouble with their Chinese names. I’ve encountered one or two which Chinese people never know how to write (and in one case, pronounce). So at least it’s not only English/Chinese that has this problem.
What do you guys make of the habit of writing a name with the Chinese and English together:
Peter Wang Chao
I’ve seen this a number of times. Would this not help you Chris?
I’m a fan of the Peter Wang Chao thing, though sometimes it’s not clear which is their family name. Not everyone I’ve seen use it does the Western order of family name last. I’ll sign emails to my professors with my full English name followed by the Mandarin just so that they don’t have to guess who I am, not that there are any other white guys in my department.
When I lived in Nanjing I had an acquaintance from Vietnam who only gave me her Chinese name. We could only communicate in Mandarin anyway and sure enough the one time she told me her actual name I couldn’t replicate it with any consistency.
In my life as a Chinese teacher of German-Norwegian American descent, I have a few different experiences with using my Chinese name with other Americans. The most common one is as 周老师 Zhōu Lǎoshī in the classroom and in most communication with my students. It’s always interesting to me to see when they choose to use my English name instead. It’s usually when they have some non-standard request to make (i.e. need to miss a class, have a favor to ask), and usually in e-mails. I have only heard them use my English name when referring to me in the third-person for someone outside of our class.
My second experience comes from attending a graduate program conducted in Chinese (i.e. with a Chinese only language pledge) with about a third of the students being non-Chinese. This produces the strange situation where, after the semester has ended and classmates want to talk or e-mail in English, we feel much more comfortable using each others’ Chinese names–since that’s the only way we’ve addressed each other for the majority of our time together. How long this behavior will persist after finishing the program isn’t clear to me, but for now, it seems much more natural to refer to my classmates by Chinese names, and I always have to pause mentally before uttering any of their English names.
At the beginning of each semester of my first year of Chinese lessons people in the class would refer to each other by their Chinese names outside of class – like while walking between classes you’d see Wang Jiawai and call him Jiawai or Xiao Wang instead of “uh…hey….Bill?” It was easier and less embarrassing than admitting you forgot their English name from the first day of class.
Actually, come to think of it, in all of my classes to date, I’ve always referred to other non-friends in my Chinese class by their Chinese name. i.e. “Dude David, did you hear what Lei Li said to Chen Laoshi after class today?” even if I knew that Lei Li was named Emily.
I always use my Chinese name around Chinese people; in fact 晓雅 has become something of a persona for me and it’s weird for me to interact with Chinese as Sarah. As for Westerners, if we both speak Chinese we often half-jokingly use our Chinese names in conversation. And at university in Jinhua last semester, there were plenty of Westerners whose English names I STILL didn’t know by the end of semester. Since we all used our Chinese names in class, that’s what we were used to. ‘Have you seen Martine?’ ‘Who??’ ‘玫瑰’ ‘OH!’
I know I have a habit of presenting some challenge or some search, and then only much later working out the guidelines. So sorry if this is that.
I’m not sure the Mandarin class classroom works as an example of this. In that case it’s just that you’re locked into it by habit, but these aren’t names anyone is really using in seriousness outside of that environment.
I think your use of 晓雅 (nice name btw) gets closer, but then you’re still using it in a limited way.
Pretty much everyone calls me ‘John’ in English or Chinese (generally being rendered as more or less 站 in Chinese). My Chinese name is 岳撼, and so some people that know me only from formal interactions call me 岳先生/小岳, but not many. My in-laws persist in calling me 约翰, but I don’t mind very much. In my head, my name is John, and everything else is just to help people that can’t quite manage it (though I’m lucky in that it’s a pretty phonetically simple name).
The opposite of what Chris mentioned above, “The most annoying thing is when you only know their English name and you are in a conversation with someone who is Chinese and definately knows them (eg colleagues) but doesn’t know their English name,” has also happened to me. I call my wife by her Chinese name, but at work she goes by her English name, Susan. Sometimes when I call I forget and ask for her by her full name, and a lot of her coworkers simply know her as “Susan Wang,” rather than by her Chinese name.
What sarah mentioned-the chinese name taking on something of a persona- is something I recognize, it happened to me too, especially in the beginning of the time I was here, but it faded away, I do think however that it is just normal, that being in a new environment, a loong way from home, having a different name has a psychological effect. But I guess that is a little besides the point of this discussion.
I don’t very much like the Peter Wang Chao thing, because of the confusion it creates, especially when you meet a lot of people, you always have to ask again was it Mr Wang or Mr Chao? Of course that is not an issue when you see them often, or if you only discuss matters in English, but if you only see them twice a year and as often happens in my case, you are switching back an forward in three or four languages, after a while it becomes embarassing and or confusing in Chinese to remember who is who…
John, the same thing happened to me too, my boss’s chinese name is Su Yan, but she is almost exclusively known as Susan…also a bit weird, for all of my contacts refer to her as Susan, never using her Chinese name, but then sometimes in conversation they switch back to her original Chinese name…adding to the confusion of those who have no idea about her Chinese name.
Kellen: Are you more looking for someone who changes their name entirely as a result of moving into a new culture? As if, for example, I introduced myself using my Chinese name to my Western associates as well as my Chinese ones? Best example I can think of that is where one’s Chinese name is used consistently in professional/public life, like Da Shan. But there aren’t many people like that.
Sarah, I believe not even Da Shan does this, in his programmes, I don’t know the guy personally, he always presents himself as Mark Roswell otherwise (or also) known as Da Shan…
I know, I’m a prick. Sorry.
What I’d love to see is someone, a normal someone, who isn’t Chinese who does the name change to the extent that I see many Chinese do.
Da Shan gets close, but because he’s famous it doesn’t really work. Like find me a person who changes their legal name to one word but is otherwise a normal dude. So Cher, Teller etc don’t count. Though Teller gets mad props for having even his passport just say “Teller”.
Chris: Ah ok, I haven’t seen many of his programs (only excerpts shown in classes) so I didn’t know that. For a start, I didn’t even know his real name!
Kellen: Hmm. Nope, you’ve got me there. I think many Chinese use an English name in that way beause using one name for everything is more convenient and (young) Chinese people can pronounce an English name more easily than Westerners can pronounce/remember an unfamiliar Chinese name. Also, it’s trendy, which I suspect is the biggest reason.
But there aren’t many situations for Westerners where those requirements are met. Even if a Westerner is nearly always dealing with Chinese in their daily lives, they will still encounter difficulties that don’t exist to nearly the same extent in the above scenario when introducing themselves to other Westerners by their Chinese name. Also, when English is so trendy in China, how trendy is it for a Westerner to use a Chinese name?
Just to be picky, I assume you’re discounting normal people who just change their name because they didn’t like the name they were born under? I have a friend called Gwyn; found out she changed her name legally from Wendy they day she turned 18. I don’t know if any paperwork exists with her name as Wendy now.
Sarah,
Good points, all. There are cases where a Chinese person who otherwise has no need to an English name will still take one, though I get that the same trendiness doesn’t exist the other way.
Just for kicks I’m going to try to rock out a Chinese name for a bit.
Yeah, let’s MAKE it trendy!
It’s not Chinese, but it seems that that Japanese naturalized foreigners’ activist Arudou Debito uses his Japanese name even with Westerners, at least as far as his site and professional context goes; only rarely does he use his actual name it seems. (David Aldwinckle, BTW)
Tim: I completely forgot about naturalised Japanese. Sumo wrestlers, the majority of which are now foreigners, use their Japanese names often as far as I know or have heard of.
晓雅: I’m on it!
True, but the sumo may be required to; Arudou is doing it from his own will. Admittedly, I use my Chinese name with Chinese, 高信天, but I have a well-thought out one, due to a very great laoshi who made appropriate names which bear -some- phonetic resemblance (in my case, “Cousins Tim”) , but I also hate how it seems like Chinese can’t ever do it right, either I get “tee-mu” or sometimes, from Cantonese speakers, “Tɘm” to use the IPA.