On proper vocabulary, rethinking the third tone, and the Hànzì thought police
It was still before 8 a.m. when the staccato cacophony of metal on tile shocked Mr. Zhao out of bed.
Mere mortal sleepers might have been awakened long ago on this Shangdi Saturday morning, what with the constant pattering of feet, the grinding drone of an overloaded washing machine, the beating of stick on rug…
But anyone of Mr. Zhao’s tenure in residence underneath the living quarters of the Beijing Sounds cast either knows their sedatives well or has come to an enlightened understanding of which sounds may be considered soporific. Zhao learned months ago to snuggle deeper into the covers as the upstairs unit finished the week’s wash, beat the dust out of a rug or two, and had a hearty breakfast of eggs, fāmiànrbǐng (发面儿饼 = a flat, leavened pan-bread), and milk well before a comparable American family* would have stumbled downstairs to pour the Cheerios.
The gentle grumble of the washing machine, the pleasant rhythm of the rug-cleaning activities — for Mr. Zhao it’s all enough to feel almost womb-like.
Until the crash.
That would be the sound of the (formerly) height-adjustable parallel bar clothes-drying apparatus, repaired jerryrigged by syz in a fashion that would earn a safety citation at a Liaoning mine, plummeting to earth, burying child and grandma in a tragedy of greasy, low quality wire, misfit screws and wet underwear.
Fortunately it didn’t happen. Or not yet at any rate. But the crash has been something of a recurring nightmare here in the Minnesota satellite studios.
No, all activities took place in the usual fashion and Mr. Zhao might well have slept right through the usual 8 AM call from Minnesota, which started off something like this:
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
YU: Wéi? Èi! Wǒ zuómo jiù gāi nǐ lái diànhuà le. [laughs]
为? Èi! 我琢磨就该你来电话了!
Hello? Hi! I thought it should be you calling!Zuómo de(?) nǐ tīngdedǒng ma?
琢磨的(?) 你听得懂吗?
Do you understand the word zuómo? [zuomo being the colloquial term she used above to say "thinking"]“Zuómo” de, jiùshì wǒ xiǎngde. Zuómo jiùshì xiǎng de yìsi.
琢磨的就是“我想的”。 琢磨就是想的意思。
Zuómo is really “I think.” It really just means “think.”Duì — kěshì zhèi liǎ zìr wǒ shuō bu xiàlái shì shénme!
对可是这俩字儿我说不下来是什么! [thanks to André for 时/是 correction]
Right — but I don’t have any idea what the two characters would be! [ie the two characters of zuómo]
Proper Mandarin
The first of several oddities here is the question itself. Zuómo struck me as an awfully pedestrian word for YU to be asking about, given its frequent use around the studios, so why does she think it’s so unusual as to inquire about it specifically? Mrs. BJS says that she thinks of the word as being very local. So the YU logic is, apparently, that non-native speakers should naturally pick up only pǔtōnghuà [普通话 = standard Mandarin] rather than any local dialect, even if they are, in fact, enrolled in the school of local dialect. Do those of you outside Beijing hear this?
Talking about a word
The second oddity I haven’t quite gotten right — see the question marks in the transcription above. It’s the meta-language, i.e. the particles that are used after zuómo to indicate that she is talking about that word. In the first case it sounds a lot to me like zhe, but later like de. Not sure what to do with this.
The third tone
The third observation is not so much an oddity but a textbook example of the half third tone. I was recently pointed to a nicely done website that explains the half third tone along with other tone phenomena not only in clear and simple terms, but with examples AND sound files. Check out the site and the reference to half third tones specifically. To quote from there about the half third tone [the numbers just refer to the level of the pitch -- click through to the chart to see]:
in spontaneous speech, the third tone is rarely pronounced in full…instead… only the 2-1 part of the 2-1-4 full third tone contour is produced [before non-third tone syllables]
Now take a look at the pitch graphic (made in Praat — see the blue line? it’s a bit faint but you can click through for a larger graphic) for when YU says “kěshì zhèi liǎ zìr” (i.e. “but the two characters…”)
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Looks a lot like the third tone is simply a lingering at the bottom of the vocal range, just like the “2-1″ comment would indicate. [The bump at the end is probably just YU beginning to laugh]
John Pasden of Sinosplice had a great post recently on the problem of teaching Zhonglish speakers to use tones effectively in the context of normal speech. He summarizes a lecture he heard from a teacher of Mandarin as a second language:
- We’re giving students of Chinese the wrong picture of tones (third tone in particular)
- Tones are not of equal importance in natural speech
- Funny-sounding speech can be corrected most efficiently by focusing on certain key tones
Then he expands on this to propose the following chart for discussion:
This contrasts nicely with the traditional picture of tones (also stolen from that post)
John claims not to know whether such a chart “could actually be useful to any students” (although that seems to be his implication). But now we have YU’s sentence, which provides evidence that the first chart would work pretty well, as long as you use it in combination with John’s other admonition, that “tones are not of equal importance in connected speech.”
Granting that it’s no small task to teach which syllables in a sentence are “important”, let’s assume for a moment that it was something like this:
kě [low]
shì [unimportant]
zhèi [falling, high to low]
liǎ [low]
zìr [falling, high to low]
wǒ [unimportant/low]
Thus: low low high-low low high-low low
It’s almost exactly what YU’s Praat chart looks like, above. None of this is to say that students should not be taught the full range of third tone possibilities. As a rule of thumb for connected speech, though, saying that the third tone is dipping/falling-rising isn’t very helpful. The operating Beijing Sounds hypothesis is that you would get far more mileage out of trying to remember two rules, that the third tone is:
1. Low (no falling or rising or anything– just at the bottom of your vocal range)
2. UNLESS it precedes another third tone, in which case it becomes the second tone
Simplified? Sure. Oversimplified? Hmmm
Hànzì thought control
The final oddity is YU’s unprompted reference to not knowing the characters for zuómo. If you have even the slightest belief in Freudian slips, you’d have to believe that anxiety about knowing the characters for a given word is not far from the surface of her consciousness.
“Wait a second,” I can hear someone say, “maybe it just popped into her head because you, syz, are always asking to write down the characters associated with words.”
Trust me on this one: almost never.
In this case I have to conjecture that it really is her fervent belief that she should know the characters for any word (not to mention the belief that there are characters for every word) and that her observation and laughter indicate feeling kind of foolish about not knowing.
“But wait another second,” you’re saying. “Aren’t you guilty of simply exoticizing the language experience here? After all, you might find the same kind of attitude in a native English speaker who didn’t know how to spell, say, broccoli.”
True enough. But it seems unlikely that the native English speaker would be obsessive enough about the writing system to voice a concern about spelling in the same breath that they’re teaching somebody a new word. This is just the hànzì (汉字 = Chinese character) thought police controlling the use of spoken language!
Or maybe not. Is it just the same attitude as the one in the old saw that “ain’t’s not a word because it ain’t in the dictionary”?
Ah, the diffidence of it all.
————-
*Not intended as any cultural observation — it’s probably not normal in other Chinese families either, but I have no experience with that.



Add "Learn Chinese" to iGoogle
Comments 6
A little typo in your script there, mate. 时should be 是,right?
When it comes to the metalanguage you are talking about, I think maybe the reason why it seems to be so common in Chinese everyday communication (oh, maybe you didn’t say that, but,ey, I just did anyway..) is that the language it self consist of so few sounds. It’s all syllables and syllables merging into new syllables, but never sounds merging with sounds. I guess someone would beg to differ, but the fact still remains: Even with the right tones and the right syllables, the possibillity that what are saying could mean something different, even in the same context, is always present. So, how do they solve this, well, there’s only one way to do that, by refering to a certain charachter! And this is something very useful for non-native speakers to do, if you notice that someone didn’t really get what you just said, but it seems to me that even native speakers use this as a very smooth and efficent way to avoid misunderstandings. I wasn’t going to, but here it comes again, characters are a neccesity!
Posted 15 Dec 2008 at 1:15 am ¶hey André thanks for the correction, btw, which I put up in the post a while ago.
I never got around to commenting because I thought our friend Sima might come to your defense about the indispensability of characters.
On a couple of items you mentioned, I start from a pretty different perspective than you:
1. So few sounds — hmm, fewer than English but way more than, say, Hawaiian or Japanese
2. I used to believe pretty emphatically that there was no more potential for ambiguity in spoken Mandarin than in any other language. That’s still my starting hypothesis. But there’s enough doubt in my mind now that I’m very curious to put this into a testable hypothesis. More on that in the future.
But for today I think I can disagree with “characters are a necessity” on a technicality: namely, that what you’re talking about is precisely the opposite of what’s going on in the sound clip. In this instance, she’s not using characters to clarify something she said, right? She’s just noting how odd / embarrassing it is that she does not know the characters for this word. She’s talking about spoken language for which characters are quite irrelevant — which is why I found it interesting that she felt compelled to mention characters in the first place.
The meta-language that was on my mind in this situation was just the words (or in this case, the particle) she used to orally indicate that she was referring to the word as a word, i.e. either de/zhe — not quite sure.
Posted 19 Dec 2008 at 9:17 pm ¶I think the particle is “的” (or else maybe “地”), and that she’s just repeating (quoting) the exact phrase she used at the beginning:
为? Èi! 我琢磨的就该你来电话了! (note the 的)
”琢磨的“你听得懂吗?听的懂?
”琢磨的“就是“我想的”。 琢磨就是想的意思。
By the way, I would have transcribed “说不上来”, rather than “说不下来”, but maybe that’s just what I’m expecting to hear.
As for the third tone — I agree that it doesn’t usually match its “official description” — nevertheless having and learning an “official” pattern is helpful when dealing with meta-language… talking about specific words with native speakers, because the “official” patterns get used then, even if not normally.
We do this in English too.
Jack: “Could you get me some large Sprite?”
Jill: “You mean ‘a’ large Sprite, right?”
Here, if Jill is a native speaker of English, she’ll pronounce “a” like the letter A, with a long vowel, and primary sentence stress. But if she’s a non-native speaker who’s been taught to pronounce the particle “a” the way that native English speakers almost always pronounce it, she’ll pronounce the particle “a” like “uh”, because that’s how it’s usually pronounced when it’s unstressed and unimportant. Ask a native-english speaker to read the word by itself though, and you’ll get a long vowel “a” every time.
All that aside, I think I find your simplification more appealing than the falling-then-rising “official” description.
Posted 20 Dec 2008 at 5:21 am ¶I have to be an ass, and once again disagree with you, syz.
The way I see it, she first asks if the person she is speaking to is familiar with the word, she then goes on explaining the meaning of the word, and the next and final step would be to say which characters the word consist of, so that the lesson would be complete.
I don’t think she brought the character part up just for fun, or as a meta-language thing. It seems like she wants to give the person the last fact about the word, so that he/she would learn it completely or recall which word she is talking about.
If she did know the characters for it, she would have said something like “it’s zhuo as in …. and mo as in ….”
To me, this shows how important the characters are. Even with strictly oral usage of a word (like the example here, zhuomo琢磨, which in written has a very different meaning). Maybe not when learning the language itself, but as the culture/language-awareness of Mandarin speakers. But, again, it’s possible that this is a biased conclusion that comes from my obession with characters
However, I think it’s interesting that they even bother to come up with characters for oral expressions like this. In most languages you would of course in a certain context,let’s say in messages sent on SMS or e-mail write oral expressions, but then you would just transcribe it and each individual would have it’s on way to write it. The standardization doesn’t occur until it gets so common to even write this oral expression.
As for the potential for ambiguity in spoken Mandarin, it would be very interesting if anybody here knows about some academic study of this field.
Mandarin clearly has much fewer sounds than most European language, and my guess is that this comes from the way the language both in written and orally is contructed, with syllables rather than isolated sounds, but as you say, there’s probably plenty of languages that has even less sounds.
Posted 20 Dec 2008 at 5:41 am ¶@Chris
I think you are right. The word following is just omitted, leaving just the 的。
Posted 20 Dec 2008 at 5:43 am ¶Oh, André , I can’t speak to your ass-fulness, but most of my friends (along with pretty much all my family, perhaps excepting my parents) disagree with me. So I’m glad to have you in the group.
But I still think you are “confusing the remedy for a problem with its cause” — a quote from this text on Pinyin.info, and that it is precisely the characters that force people into a self-perpetrating cycle of writing stuff that is ambiguous if spoken.
Not that I think abandonment of characters would necessarily be easy or helpful at this point. Zev Handel has helped convince me (see some discussion on this pinyin.info post) that there are some really deep-rooted monsters in that idea. And not that it matters what I think! But I still think there’s a lot of confusion about cause and effect.
Posted 24 Dec 2008 at 10:41 pm ¶