This should make it clear:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1836181

My feeling is still that Albert was right, even though it was a side conversation and you’d said 姥姥 the first time.

If the same conversation played out in even a very conservative/up tight British family, I’d say it would not be considered impolite.

I sometimes think that Chinese manners make more sense to a Brit than they might to an American, e.g. responses to compliments…but maybe that’s a subject for another day.

Regardless, I’ll still claim that most native speakers would NOT consider the “tā” impolite in the original context discussed above:

PBS:
不是qì负是qī，一二三四五六七
Búshì “qìfu” shì qī, yī èr sān sì wǔ liù qī.
It’s not “qìfu” it’s “qī“, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [qī].

SYZ:
qī负，是吗？ 那你别欺负她吧！
Qīfu, shì ma? Nà nǐ bié qīfu tā ba!
“Qīfu,” right? Then don’t qīfu her, OK?

But maybe this is the case because what’s going on is sort of like an odd side conversation between me and PBS. Or maybe I’m just plain, dead wrong — not to mention rude.

Come on, syz, you can do better than that!

It’d be impolite to consistently refer to anyone (in English or Chinese) by a third person pronoun, when in that person’s presense.

Slightly more specific: It’d be impolite to refer to someone in conversation, for the first time, without using their name. (again, English or Chinese)

Does the greatly reduced use of pronouns in Chinese (compared with English) not have an impact here? If it’s polite to use someone’s name (or title) a certain amount in conversation and if, in Chinese, it’s permissable to drop pronouns from certain positions they would be required in English, then maybe names (or titles) seem to be deployed more in Chinese than in English.

Oh dear, I don’t think I’m helping much here.

…impolite to use tā … it didn’t cross my mind that using pronouns was impolite.

The smells like one of those ratholes I’d like to crawl down. I’d pretty strongly agree with a hypothesis like this:

H1: It is impolite to consistently refer to an elder by a 3rd person pronoun, when in that person’s presence.

Without the “consistently” qualifier, though, it sounds like overstatement to me. That is, I think almost everyone *does* refer to elders in the third person, in their presence. But the degree to which they do this is greatly limited in comparison to English, and it’s also probably constrained by who is present, with the general rule being that the more intimate the circumstances, the more likely the tā.

Anyone else think that sounds right? I’m just guessing now, but it’d be nice to form a strong hypothesis and then find some examples that support or refute it.

Anyone remember, “Who’s ’she’ – the cat’s mother?” Isn’t that used to pull up kids who rudely refer to someone as ’she’, in their presence?

On a similar note, I have a teacher who refers to herself only as 老师 (teacher) and, even when identifying herself on the phone, refuses to use her name. So we’ll have conversations like this:

Me: Hello?
Her: Sima, it’s Teacher.
Me: Which Teacher?
Her: Don’t you recognise me?
Me: (Finally recognising her voice) Oh…Teacher X, hello!
Her: Teacher just wanted to ask your help.
Me: Well, I’m a little busy today.
Her: That’s no problem. When you’ve got a little time, just give Teacher a call.
etc

At first, I found this all rather strange, rather like sportsmen who talk about their own performances in the same way, but I confess it all seems rather natural, if a little mumsy, now.

@Non-laowaichinese-albert: to use or not use tā is an interesting question. No doubt it is more polite to use a title (lǎolao in this instance) than to use tā, but my intuition says native speakers wouldn’t do this all the time. I think you’re also right that it would depend on the family, not just the dialect. Could be idiosyncratic. More expansively, my starting hypotheses would be:
1. Variation from family to family and certainly by dialect
2. Variation depending on physical presence of person in question (that use of tā is more likely if person is NOT present)

I’d be curious to hear how you came across this “problem” with your in-laws. Juicy story?

Anyone else have experience in this area? I’ll dig thru recordings and see if I can find anything from native speakers that would provide evidence one way or another.

one small thing you might want to know.. It can be considered impolite when you refer to a zhang3bei4 長輩 using 他 or 她… Usually because they are status you’d be expected to use their title (I guess Laolao in this case?). I ran into this problem with my chinese in-laws.

Although it could be different depending on the family or region?

On PBS and prescriptivism: I feel like I owe her one for implying that she only helps me when she has ulterior motives. The day after I recorded this, she corrected me on something unrelated just for the heck of it. Per your suggestion, I’m working on her běijīnghuà consulting services agreement — consulting with the attorney right now on applicable child labor laws.

@Randy: it’s almost Saturday. Don’t forget the huir3 business! It would be interesting to know if that’s considered a common non-standard “mistake”.

@chriswaugh_bj: That’s right, jiǎozi tāng is not wastewater. That’s just the term I was using because your average Americano at least would think of it as wastewater — something undrinkable. It’s definitely the same idea as the miàntāng you’re talking about, and I like the “aids digestion” note! But since you mention it, I’ll try to remember to get something about the drinking of shuāwǎnshuǐ (刷碗水) sometime.

I also think it’s funny and often sadly accurate that the headmaster of Yuemu U, since she has some familiarity with American culture now, often uses references to what měiguórén do as a shorthand for what wasteful people do. Although to quote Randy (hope you don’t mind) from another conversation, Grandma’s generation excels at “the Chinese tradition of never wasting anything except time”