Language correction as decoy
Those who think the sole purpose of language is communication are destined for disappointment and confusion. It’s not that language can’t serve that purpose, it’s just that it’s equally well suited to obfuscating, mollifying, incensing, distracting, humiliating… well, all those human activities so near to our hearts.
You’d hope this universal law of human behavior gets suspended when you’re speaking a second language. It’s hard enough to get your point across without worrying about ulterior motives of the person you’re speaking to.
You’d also hope that your affairs will prosper and your friends will be true.
You should know better, but sometimes you get sucked in. I’m a sucker for a good correction, especially when it involves tones (having been told that my speech “sounds like singing”), and especially when it comes from six-year-old PBS (princess beijing sounds), who historically has deigned her father’s Zhonglish beyond acknowledgment, let alone correction. Here’s a rough playback of the conversation at the doctor’s office in the States a couple years back:
Doc: Wow, so you can speak English and Chinese
PBS: Yeah, so does my mom. But Grandma only speaks Chinese.
Doc: And does your dad speak Chinese?
PBS: No.
A kid’s correction seems purer than an adult’s. They’re not worried about damaging your delicate ego, and they’ll tell it like it is said rather than how somebody told them it should be said. And in defense of PBS, that “purity” all exists in the following correction. But as no one with kids will be surprised to hear, the only reason she gets the idea of correcting the Zhonglish in the first place is that she wants to steer the conversation away from the topic at hand — criticism of her treatment of Grandma.
The context is that PBS , her grandma, and your correspondent, syz, are eating dinner. G has just come back to the table with a bowl of jiǎozi tāng (饺子汤 — see Note 1). I ask if PBS would like some too.
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SYZ:
喝吗？
Hē ma?
Want to drink?Grandma:
多着呢，饺子汤。
Duōzhe ne, jiǎozi tāng.
There’s a lot of jiǎozi tāng.PBS:
待会儿。
Dāihuir.
Later.SYZ:
待会儿，现在。
Dāihuir — xiànzài.
Later — now.PBS:
待会儿
Dāihuir.
Later.Grandma:
没–她非。。。 就你中午给她倒奶。
Méi — tā fēi… Jiù nǐ zhōngwǔ gěi tā dào nǎi…
[stumbling]… At lunchtime, you want to pour milk for her…她吃饭，我给她倒奶。 “待会儿！”
Tā chī fàn, wǒ gěi tā dào nǎi. “Dāihuir!”
She’s eating and I want to pour milk for her. “Later!”我待会儿！ 我在这儿让牛奶等着你。
Wǒ dāihuir! Wǒ zài zhèr ràng niúnǎi děngzhe nǐ.
I do it later! I’m here making the milk wait for you [thanks John for the thoughts on translation and also see Note 2]我还都提了奶桶回来我再给放回去。
Wǒ hái dōu tíle nǎitǒng huílai wǒ zài gěi fànghuí qù.
I carry the milk jug back and put it away.我待会儿！ 你说什么时候倒我就什么时候倒。
Wǒ dāihuir! Nǐ shuō shénme shíjiān dào wǒ jiù shénme shíjiān dào.
Later! You tell me when I should poor it and I’ll pour it.SYZ:
别欺负姥姥！
Bié qìfu lǎolao! [mispronouncing the qī as qì]
Don’t bully Grandma!PBS:
不是qì负是qī，一二三四五六七
Búshì “qìfu” shì qī, yī èr sān sì wǔ liù qī.
It’s not “qìfu” it’s “qī“, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [qī].SYZ:
qī负，是吗？ 那你别欺负她吧！
Qīfu, shì ma? Nà nǐ bié qīfu tā ba!
“Qīfu,” right? Then don’t qīfu her, OK?PBS:
那个qī也别说太长。
Nèige “qī” yě bié shuō tài cháng.
That “qī” shouldn’t be held too long either.
First, the language notes. The correction of my blatantly wrong tone doesn’t provide fodder for either side in the “focus-on-tones vs. don’t-worry-about-it” debate. I’m pretty firmly in the camp that says one should explicitly focus on tones early on in Mandarin learning (rabidly so in this post on Zhonglish tones). I don’t think they will just come naturally later. But there’s no denying that people (especially those you spend lots of time with) can often understand a mistaken tone in context. That’s what happened here, so chalk one up for the don’t-worry-about-it side. That said, the head prof at Yuèmǔ University sometimes claims she’s probably the only person in the world who can understand my Mandarin.
The other language note is the tone on “dāihuir“. The ABC dictionary has it as 5th tone, and I’ve written it that way. But especially the first time PBS speaks it sounds awfully similar to textbook 3rd tone: dāihuǐr. Disagreement?
Second, you might reasonably ask, “How does PBS get away with such mistreatment of her elders, except insofar as she’s just spoiled rotten?” Leaving aside the tag question, I’d say this “bullying” stuff is a lot of theater. As mentioned in the first episode of Yuèmǔ U, the following principle applies
“Any request for food … no matter how it is made, is legitimate and to be greeted with delight and immediate gratification”
Thus Grandma’s feigned annoyance at being asked to put the milk back and pour it when PBS is ready. In fact, she is delighted to pour milk at any time and in any manner requested. For a parent / grandparent / caretaker to be bullied in the context of food is regarded as a wonderful thing. The “Johnny-is-demanding-about-food” story is as eagerly related at social gatherings as stories about good grades or other examples of being guāi (乖 = well-behaved).
I suppose the same could be said about your hapless correspondent — such a pushover for anything linguistic that he gets pulled in by the most blatant six-year-old decoy maneuvers.
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Note 1
As an aside, what is jiǎozi tāng, anyway? It’s the water left over after boiling the dumplings, a liquid whose consumption I long attributed to the core Yuèmǔ University principle: waste not. Sure, I could understand, rationally, that jiǎozi tāng wouldn’t kill you. But why, except to prevent the wasting of water, would anyone drink wastewater?! It was only after several years of attendance that I realized I was wrong. You don’t grit your teeth and drink jiǎozi tāng; you drink it cuz you like it. Really. And like so many aspects of acculturation, eventually you come to think a good hot bowl of it goes quite nicely with a stomachful of jiǎozi.
Note 2
From the conversation, I’m not really sure how to parse: “Wǒ zài zhèr ràng niúnǎi dāihuir.” Is it just a broken sentence or am I missing a key meaning of ràng? Ideas? [Update: changed text above, thanks to John's comment below]
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Comments 16
I think what she says is “我在这儿让牛奶等了你“，as in, “I’m here making the milk wait for you.”
The “huir” in “daihuir” is probably usually said with a neutral tone, but I think it’s often pronounced in the third tone for emphasis.
My mother-in-law could probably also be a tenured professor at Yuemu U. Last Sunday my wife was out of town, but had ordered a cake for her mom for Mother’s day, and I was in charge of accepting the delivery of the cake at 9am. I didn’t want her or my father-in-law to answer the door when the cake came, so I came up with the great idea of telling them that I had a friend stopping by on his way to the airport to pick up a book that I had borrowed. I know, a stupid idea, but it was early on a Sunday morning, and I wanted to make sure that I answered the door when the cake came.
About five minutes after I told them about my “friend”, my mother-in-law asked me whether we should cook an early lunch for them. This is at about 8:50, and I’d told her that the friend was coming around nine to pick up the book. I told her that they were in a hurry and wouldn’t be able to eat, and reminded her that they would be arriving at 9am. “No worries”, she said, “we can just eat a little early.”
Regretting the story I’d made up, I was able to convince her that we didn’t need to fix a meal, but she insisted that we cut some fruit. I finally had to tell her that my friend was in such a hurry that I would have to meet him out by the side of the road with the book.
Anyway, they loved the cake, and we had a great Mother’s Day.
Posted 18 May 2008 at 5:58 am ¶John, I almost snorted my coffee over the “just eat a little early” story. Classic Yuemu U, that one.
Meal Timing is a graduate course at YU and it sounds like you’ve passed. White Lies are only tackled in post-graduate work and I’m impressed you worked this one through. I’ve painted myself into many a corner…
Thanks for the idea about ràng. I believe it’s zhe instead of le (着/了) in the sentence, “我在这儿让牛奶等了你“ but I can’t parse either one very well and it’s really too fast to say. I modified it above. We’ll see if anyone else chimes in.
Posted 18 May 2008 at 3:43 pm ¶I like the “making the milk wait for you” translation. I also love the side plot of Yuemu U. That could be it’s own whole blog, but I hope it doesn’t become so. Recurring semi-regulars are a big part of successful sit-coms.
As for “huir3″ v. “huir5″: I’ve heard “huir3″ a lot down south here and it does seem to be for emphasis.
Can’t get enough of PBS and her linguistic prescriptivism. Maybe she should consider doing some Zhonglish consulting via Skype or something.
Posted 19 May 2008 at 9:52 pm ¶I’ve heard dāihuǐr up here also, and yìhuǐr as well. If you remind me (or if I remember by myself) on Saturday or Sunday, I will look it up in a Putonghua test textbook to see if it is listed as a frequently mispronounced tone in Jilin.
Posted 21 May 2008 at 4:24 am ¶Isn’t jiǎozi tāng pretty much the same as the water left over from boiling noodles, and not so much waste water as “soup” that is drunk to aid the digestion?
Posted 22 May 2008 at 12:42 am ¶@Albert — this helps to know that huir3 is widespread. Where are you again?
On PBS and prescriptivism: I feel like I owe her one for implying that she only helps me when she has ulterior motives. The day after I recorded this, she corrected me on something unrelated just for the heck of it. Per your suggestion, I’m working on her běijīnghuà consulting services agreement — consulting with the attorney right now on applicable child labor laws.
@Randy: it’s almost Saturday. Don’t forget the huir3 business! It would be interesting to know if that’s considered a common non-standard “mistake”.
@chriswaugh_bj: That’s right, jiǎozi tāng is not wastewater. That’s just the term I was using because your average Americano at least would think of it as wastewater — something undrinkable. It’s definitely the same idea as the miàntāng you’re talking about, and I like the “aids digestion” note! But since you mention it, I’ll try to remember to get something about the drinking of shuāwǎnshuǐ (刷碗水) sometime.
I also think it’s funny and often sadly accurate that the headmaster of Yuemu U, since she has some familiarity with American culture now, often uses references to what měiguórén do as a shorthand for what wasteful people do. Although to quote Randy (hope you don’t mind) from another conversation, Grandma’s generation excels at “the Chinese tradition of never wasting anything except time”
Posted 22 May 2008 at 3:42 am ¶hui5 vs hui3.
Posted 22 May 2008 at 12:11 pm ¶Never heard of daihui with 5tone. I think hui is always hui3 when it means ‘moment’ as opposed to ‘can,able,occasion’. Beijing dialect is anyway quite famous for it’s clear (almost exaggerated) tones.
I noticed you said “qī负，是吗？ 那你别欺负她吧！”
one small thing you might want to know.. It can be considered impolite when you refer to a zhang3bei4 長輩 using 他 or 她… Usually because they are status you’d be expected to use their title (I guess Laolao in this case?). I ran into this problem with my chinese in-laws.
Although it could be different depending on the family or region?
Posted 15 Jun 2008 at 10:15 pm ¶Wow! How many people named Albert read this blog?
Posted 17 Jun 2008 at 7:21 pm ¶Hi you two Alberts: yes, I woulda thought Wordpress would try to prevent duplicate names. Alas…
@Non-laowaichinese-albert: to use or not use tā is an interesting question. No doubt it is more polite to use a title (lǎolao in this instance) than to use tā, but my intuition says native speakers wouldn’t do this all the time. I think you’re also right that it would depend on the family, not just the dialect. Could be idiosyncratic. More expansively, my starting hypotheses would be:
1. Variation from family to family and certainly by dialect
2. Variation depending on physical presence of person in question (that use of tā is more likely if person is NOT present)
I’d be curious to hear how you came across this “problem” with your in-laws. Juicy story?
Anyone else have experience in this area? I’ll dig thru recordings and see if I can find anything from native speakers that would provide evidence one way or another.
Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 4:36 am ¶I asked my wife about this and was going to post a comment on it, but then forgot. She agrees that it is impolite to use tā with elders in the family. Of course that rule doesn’t apply when they’re not around though. Thinking back, I have noticed that people use family titles lǎoyé, sānyílǎo, èrjiù, etc. instead of pronouns, but it didn’t cross my mind that using pronouns was impolite.
Posted 18 Jun 2008 at 4:48 am ¶I think other Albert has it about right, but I suspect it happens, or used to happen, more in English than I sometimes realise. Isn’t there a certain amount of reinforcing of family roles or titles that goes on for the benefit of the kids, and would seem quite strange when they weren’t there?
Anyone remember, “Who’s ’she’ – the cat’s mother?” Isn’t that used to pull up kids who rudely refer to someone as ’she’, in their presence?
On a similar note, I have a teacher who refers to herself only as 老师 (teacher) and, even when identifying herself on the phone, refuses to use her name. So we’ll have conversations like this:
Me: Hello?
Her: Sima, it’s Teacher.
Me: Which Teacher?
Her: Don’t you recognise me?
Me: (Finally recognising her voice) Oh…Teacher X, hello!
Her: Teacher just wanted to ask your help.
Me: Well, I’m a little busy today.
Her: That’s no problem. When you’ve got a little time, just give Teacher a call.
etc
At first, I found this all rather strange, rather like sportsmen who talk about their own performances in the same way, but I confess it all seems rather natural, if a little mumsy, now.
Posted 19 Jun 2008 at 12:05 am ¶The smells like one of those ratholes I’d like to crawl down. I’d pretty strongly agree with a hypothesis like this:
H1: It is impolite to consistently refer to an elder by a 3rd person pronoun, when in that person’s presence.
Without the “consistently” qualifier, though, it sounds like overstatement to me. That is, I think almost everyone *does* refer to elders in the third person, in their presence. But the degree to which they do this is greatly limited in comparison to English, and it’s also probably constrained by who is present, with the general rule being that the more intimate the circumstances, the more likely the tā.
Anyone else think that sounds right? I’m just guessing now, but it’d be nice to form a strong hypothesis and then find some examples that support or refute it.
Posted 23 Jun 2008 at 3:55 pm ¶“H1: It is impolite to consistently refer to an elder by a 3rd person pronoun, when in that person’s presence.”
Come on, syz, you can do better than that!
It’d be impolite to consistently refer to anyone (in English or Chinese) by a third person pronoun, when in that person’s presense.
Slightly more specific: It’d be impolite to refer to someone in conversation, for the first time, without using their name. (again, English or Chinese)
Does the greatly reduced use of pronouns in Chinese (compared with English) not have an impact here? If it’s polite to use someone’s name (or title) a certain amount in conversation and if, in Chinese, it’s permissable to drop pronouns from certain positions they would be required in English, then maybe names (or titles) seem to be deployed more in Chinese than in English.
Oh dear, I don’t think I’m helping much here.
Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:02 pm ¶Sima,
Up to your usual habit of sowing confusion, I see. Dammitall, maybe you’re right, but I still don’t know what the “cat’s mother” thing was all about.
Regardless, I’ll still claim that most native speakers would NOT consider the “tā” impolite in the original context discussed above:
But maybe this is the case because what’s going on is sort of like an odd side conversation between me and PBS. Or maybe I’m just plain, dead wrong — not to mention rude.
Posted 24 Jun 2008 at 5:31 pm ¶Hmmm, apologies. Looks like I went all limey on you, with the cat’s mother.
This should make it clear:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1836181
My feeling is still that Albert was right, even though it was a side conversation and you’d said 姥姥 the first time.
If the same conversation played out in even a very conservative/up tight British family, I’d say it would not be considered impolite.
I sometimes think that Chinese manners make more sense to a Brit than they might to an American, e.g. responses to compliments…but maybe that’s a subject for another day.
Posted 25 Jun 2008 at 4:06 pm ¶Post a Comment